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["Daniel Quintiliani" <danq AT runbox.com>]

Yes, plus you'd have to start charging dues, and assuming all members stay 
and pay the required dues to use the DNS servers, it still wouldn't be enough 
for the attorney's fees needed for 501(c)3 (let alone incorporation to begin 
with). Plus, when OpenNIC files for bankruptcy, what happens to the owners of 
the DNS servers we're supposed to be paying? There's lots at store here. The 
IRS would probably approve OpenNIC for a nasty audit before it would approve 
you for 501(c)3, and you'd still need the attorney.

--

-Dan Q

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:08:46 -0500, Jonah Aragon <jonah AT opennic.org> wrote:

> I agree, it’s more wishful thinking on my part. I don’t think it’s too 
> likely we’ll incorporate in any form in the near future. If the community 
> were to split over a decision like this, I don’t think there’d be enough 
> members on either side of the “fork” for it to be worthwhile, I’d 
> definitely advocate against any kind of incorporation at the moment.
> 
> Jonah
> 
> > On Jul 26, 2018, at 3:42 AM, <vv AT cgs.pw> <vv AT cgs.pw> wrote:
> > 
> > It's a little jarring to hear constant reference
> > to 501(c)3 as if we're all Americans. If this is
> > supposed to be an international group then it is
> > somewhat off-color to make such an assumption.
> > The US is not the center of the world.
> > 
> > That said, the US may well be a suitable place
> > for this organization, though I would think that
> > some European country, or even Canada, would be
> > better - if for no other reason than it would be
> > further out of the reach of ICANN.
> > 
> > As for annual application, I don't know how it
> > works in the US, but here you just need to file
> > an annual report once you're registered. That's
> > actually pretty easy. I'm on a number of boards
> > for small societies and it's not much of a burden.
> > However, being a registered non-profit does carry
> > some responsibilities which I'm not convinced that
> > OpenNIC is able to meet. There are certainly some
> > hoops to go through to even get there in the first
> > place. This will all have different aspects in
> > different countries, though I imagine the basic
> > "Societies Act", or whatever it's called there,
> > would contain similar ideas. We just had a major
> > re-write here in Canada and it's been a lot of work
> > for us to figure out what we all need to do to
> > get in line with the new act. I found some very
> > good on-line legal breakdowns and guidelines for 
> > groups such as mine who can't afford lawyers, so
> > it's not as onerous as some might think.
> > 
> > To me that's all just an intellectual exercise
> > though, because if OpenNIC were to incorporate
> > then it would be the end of the "open" part of
> > how we work. Whether that's good or bad or
> > indifferent is not the issue to me, but rather
> > that if it happened it would probably be a fork
> > of the present group. Do we have enough members
> > to split like that? Will the incorporated fork
> > be able to move ahead fast enough to not simply
> > fall apart and atrophy? I don't know. But those
> > are the issues that come to my mind.
> > 
> > Regards,
> >        Ole
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:20:30 -0400 (EDT)
> > "Daniel Quintiliani" <danq AT runbox.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Well, first you need to incorporate before even thinking
> >> about (annually I think) applying for 501(c)3. In fact a
> >> 501(c)3 is pointless unless you're trying to attract
> >> large donations (as in, hundreds of thousands of
> >> dollars). Also, who would get the money?
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >> -Dan Q
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:16:45 -0500, Jonah Aragon
> >> <jonah AT opennic.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I think this is why we aren’t a 501(c)(3) yet, but I
> >>> was just saying that forming such an organization was
> >>> at one point voted on and ratified.
> >>> 
> >>> Jonah
> >>> 
> >>>> On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Daniel Quintiliani
> >>>> <danq AT runbox.com> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> A reminder about 501(c)3, since sometimes people
> >>>> mention it, OpenNIC will need a board of directors,
> >>>> including a treasurer, keeping of records, and all
> >>>> before you hire a tax attorney to apply for 501(c)3
> >>>> status with the IRS (and they may refuse, or revoke
> >>>> 501(c)3 status from OpenNIC later on). 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Also, the elected board of directors (or donors with
> >>>> enough money to have filed itemized deductions) will
> >>>> have the final say, not the "voters"
> >>>> 
> >>>> --
> >>>> 
> >>>> -Dan Q
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:01:50 -0500, Jonah Aragon
> >>>> <jonah AT opennic.org> wrote: 
> >>>>> Yes. In my opinion, OpenNIC’s purpose was to be a
> >>>>> user-controlled alternative to ICANN. The problem
> >>>>> with ICANN wasn’t the rules they implemented
> >>>>> necessarily, but the opaque decision-making process
> >>>>> behind them, and their clear money grabbing
> >>>>> practices. Not to mention their status as a monopoly
> >>>>> on the domain name system.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Developing an actual organizational structure is our
> >>>>> path to becoming a serious alternative to ICANN (as
> >>>>> a related reminder, we did already vote to form a
> >>>>> 501(c)(3) organization, although that hasn’t
> >>>>> materialized as of yet). I know a lot of people here
> >>>>> seem to be content with the status quo, but it’s
> >>>>> time to get back to our original purpose of building
> >>>>> a serious competitor.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Our current setup can be achieved by anybody with a
> >>>>> computer and 5 minutes to install BIND9. If OpenNIC
> >>>>> is an organization in name only, if we aren’t
> >>>>> willing to enact policies that will help us form a
> >>>>> united cause against ICANN, why does OpenNIC need to
> >>>>> exist at all? 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Jonah
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Jul 25, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Daniel Quintiliani
> >>>>>> <danq AT runbox.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I've only been involved in OpenNIC since
> >>>>>> Prism-Break (2013 according to the mailing list
> >>>>>> archives), but to my knowledge OpenNIC was created
> >>>>>> to allow democratic, non-secret decision making as
> >>>>>> opposed to ICANN, right?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -Dan Q
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:36:57 -0500, kevin
> >>>>>> <krattai AT gmail.com> wrote: 
> >>>>>>> I've just been thinking about a problem with
> >>>>>>> another community I'm involved in and while
> >>>>>>> working through possible solutions, I remembered
> >>>>>>> that corporate strategies yields corporate results.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> As an original group of volunteerists, it's odd to
> >>>>>>> look at the way openNIC has progressed in some
> >>>>>>> areas, especially for a group that I believe
> >>>>>>> wanted to get away from the bureaucracy that
> >>>>>>> resulted in ICANN.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> I'm not opposed to voting for things as a way to
> >>>>>>> maintain focus on certain activities that will
> >>>>>>> move a community forward, but when a vote is about
> >>>>>>> developing a bureaucratic and corporate structure,
> >>>>>>> it really doesn't make sense for a group of
> >>>>>>> decentralized volunteerists.  In fact, it can be
> >>>>>>> highly detrimental to such a group activity.  A
> >>>>>>> lot of some of the more current "decisions" the
> >>>>>>> group has voted on and the direction of much of
> >>>>>>> our documentation, especially as "rules" rather
> >>>>>>> than "guidelines", I wonder what the end result of
> >>>>>>> openNIC might be, in relation to ICANN.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Anyhow, I just wanted to put that out there and
> >>>>>>> find if maybe there's others active in the group
> >>>>>>> who are thinking like I am, or if I'm really just
> >>>>>>> an outlier in the community.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Kevin  
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
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> > 
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