Discuss mailing list

[Zach Gibbens <zachgibbens AT zachgibbens.org>]

What I'd like to see is a list of what we're trying to fix exactly, this list is working well enough to have this discussion.

From what I've read there's no reason to drop the mailing list, merely a request to create a forum to our community too.

If that's the intent, add a forum as an additional tool, I'd be supportive to the idea (but likely abstain from the vote)

If I've somehow misread this and we really are talking about ditching the list, then I'll be opposed without having a clear reason why.

If the request is being made due to having too much email from the list, I've got to ask how much is the right amount? This is the lowest traffic list I belong to, and the busiest list I'm getting a daily digest so I don't get hit with an email every 5 minutes or worse.

I won't get into the _javascript_ debate too far, if it's a personal or community choice is somewhat irrelevant, because if the community sees it as a community issue, they can say so with their vote. If they see it as an individual choice, they can state their opinion with their browser settings.

Signed,

Zach Gibbens

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: [opennic-discuss] Moving to Discourse (Forum + Mailing List Replacement)

Local Time: April 20, 2017 3:08 AM

UTC Time: April 20, 2017 3:08 AM

From: jonaharagon AT gmail.com

To: Alastair Hogge <agh AT fasmail.fm>

discuss AT lists.opennicproject.org

I have to respectfully disagree. _javascript_ is a programming language. The assumptions you're making, about how _javascript_ enables surveillance on a mass scale is essentially the same as saying you won't use anything written in C++ because Windows is written in C++ and Windows spies on all its users (which is not true anyways).

Discourse uses _javascript_ because _javascript_ is arguably the most universal programming language that has ever been written. It works on every device, everywhere. _javascript_ just gets the seemingly worst impression with people because it's so widespread. _javascript_ is a tool that's arguably best suited for exactly this job, easy and fast discussion. And eschewing _javascript_ is tantamount to giving up on most of the modern web. The most used sites either won't function without it or will be horribly limited.

And the _javascript_ frontend is exactly the reason I'm suggesting we use Discourse in the first place. Live formatting previews when posting, instant searches, infinite scrolling, immediate reply visibility; these are all vast usability improvements over forum software made for a decade old version of the internet today.

All in all, our Discourse installation would be self hosted, so anyone will be able to whitelist the domain in their JS blockers, shouldn't cause any issues. And as I said in the original post, mailing list type functionality will remain, you're not being forced to use the web interface.

It seems most people have an attitude along the lines of "I'm fine using this new software as long as it acts 100% like the old software I was using before". This is not what I'm proposing. It's a personal choice if you choose to disable _javascript_, but the usage of it shouldn't prevent us as a community from moving forward to better platforms.

For what it's worth, Discourse works fine in a read-only mode without _javascript_.I Ioaded https://try.discourse.org/ as you mentioned, in Internet Explorer 11 with _javascript_ disabled and it loads beautifully. It isn't very usable, but at least users who actively refuse _javascript_ would be able to read archives/linked posts. See http://i.imgur.com/skd5o5g.png and http://i.imgur.com/ajeADZS.png. 

Best Regards,

Jonah

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:01 PM Alastair Hogge <agh AT fasmail.fm> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:45:59 +0000

Jonah Aragon <jonaharagon AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

> I'd like to propose moving our Mailing List and long form discussion

> to a new platform, Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/). Most of

> this post will probably sound like a Discourse ad (sorry), but I want

> to make sure everyone understands why we should switch.

[removed remaining proposal]

Althou Discourse looks interesting, & thanks for sharing it, I do

however a major nit to pick with it.

Via https://www.discourse.org/about:

% What was it built with?

%

% Discourse is a _javascript_ application that runs in your web browser,

% using the Ember.js framework.

Forcing users to enable _javascript_ or any client side code is a poor

decision on behalf of users.  I suspect there are number of OpenNIC

members who are familiar with the surveillance concerns of enabling

client side code on users systems.  I do not think OpenNIC should be

complicit in enabling broader attack surfaces on the community.

Is Discourse usable with _javascript_ disabled?  A quick test on my end;

https://try.discourse.org does not load on my test system as I have

_javascript_ disabled.

_javascript_, or any client side execution is a barrier to inclusiveness

in the age of digital surveillance.  I am not implying that the

Discourse community has a malicious agenda, I am suggesting that the

OpenNIC community should prioritise principles that allow users to

maximise there freedom & liberty online, that is, a practice that is

free from potential forms of surveillance, while also attempting to

maintain an accessible user experience.  Yes, some users can

containerise their _javascript_ enabled software, however, that is not

the argument.

To health & anarchy.