Discuss mailing list

[<vv AT cgs.pw>]

I'm one of the ones who was not too fond of mailing
lists. However, I made the best of it and just used
an unique email address for this, which simplifies
things a bit. I like forums, but the one we've got
is not set up the way I'd personally prefer, and
for some reason people in this group tend to be shy.

On the mailing list they will reply to all sorts of
thing, thus keeping the conversation going. On the
forum things just seem to die. Perhaps it relates
to the number of people on mobile devices or who
don't have a browser or two open 24/7 like I do.
Everyone has email and checks it too. This
discussion can go on forever, but it seems people
are happy with this list and as far as I'm concerned,
so be it.

As for client side JavaScript, it does indeed do
great things. Often it is used to do things which
don't need to be done. That's mostly a matter of
personal preference regarding levels of simplicity
or sophistication preferences.

In any case, I'm sure that Discourse has some real
advantages. I've been looking at images in Google
for what it looks like and it doesn't catch my
attention. Moving to an avatar world will probably
not fit with the people around here. My feeling is
that Discourse is not going to fly with this crowd.
In the end, I'll use almost anything, but there
are too many here who will not participate if it's
not via email.

My 2¢
       Ole



On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:20 -0400
Zach Gibbens <zachgibbens AT zachgibbens.org> wrote:

> What I'd like to see is a list of what we're trying to
> fix exactly, this list is working well enough to have
> this discussion. From what I've read there's no reason to
> drop the mailing list, merely a request to create a forum
> to our community too.
> 
> If that's the intent, add a forum as an additional tool,
> I'd be supportive to the idea (but likely abstain from
> the vote) If I've somehow misread this and we really are
> talking about ditching the list, then I'll be opposed
> without having a clear reason why.
> 
> If the request is being made due to having too much email
> from the list, I've got to ask how much is the right
> amount? This is the lowest traffic list I belong to, and
> the busiest list I'm getting a daily digest so I don't
> get hit with an email every 5 minutes or worse.
> 
> I won't get into the javascript debate too far, if it's a
> personal or community choice is somewhat irrelevant,
> because if the community sees it as a community issue,
> they can say so with their vote. If they see it as an
> individual choice, they can state their opinion with
> their browser settings.
> 
> Signed,
> Zach Gibbens
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [opennic-discuss] Moving to Discourse (Forum
> + Mailing List Replacement) Local Time: April 20, 2017
> 3:08 AM UTC Time: April 20, 2017 3:08 AM
> From: jonaharagon AT gmail.com
> To: Alastair Hogge <agh AT fasmail.fm>
> discuss AT lists.opennicproject.org
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree. Javascript is a
> programming language. The assumptions you're making,
> about how Javascript enables surveillance on a mass scale
> is essentially the same as saying you won't use anything
> written in C++ because Windows is written in C++ and
> Windows spies on all its users (which is not true
> anyways).
> 
> Discourse uses Javascript because Javascript is arguably
> the most universal programming language that has ever
> been written. It works on every device, everywhere.
> Javascript just gets the seemingly worst impression with
> people because it's so widespread. Javascript is a tool
> that's arguably best suited for exactly this job, easy
> and fast discussion. And eschewing Javascript is
> tantamount to giving up on most of the modern web. The
> most used sites either won't function without it or will
> be horribly limited.
> 
> And the Javascript frontend is exactly the reason I'm
> suggesting we use Discourse in the first place. Live
> formatting previews when posting, instant searches,
> infinite scrolling, immediate reply visibility; these are
> all vast usability improvements over forum software made
> for a decade old version of the internet today.
> 
> All in all, our Discourse installation would be self
> hosted, so anyone will be able to whitelist the domain in
> their JS blockers, shouldn't cause any issues. And as I
> said in the original post, mailing list type
> functionality will remain, you're not being forced to use
> the web interface.
> 
> It seems most people have an attitude along the lines of
> "I'm fine using this new software as long as it acts 100%
> like the old software I was using before". This is not
> what I'm proposing. It's a personal choice if you choose
> to disable Javascript, but the usage of it shouldn't
> prevent us as a community from moving forward to better
> platforms.
> 
> For what it's worth, Discourse works fine in a read-only
> mode without Javascript.I Ioaded
> https://try.discourse.org/ as you mentioned, in Internet
> Explorer 11 with Javascript disabled and it loads
> beautifully. It isn't very usable, but at least users who
> actively refuse Javascript would be able to read
> archives/linked posts. See http://i.imgur.com/skd5o5g.png
> and http://i.imgur.com/ajeADZS.png.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Jonah
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:01 PM Alastair Hogge
> <agh AT fasmail.fm> wrote: On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:45:59 +0000
> Jonah Aragon <jonaharagon AT gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > I'd like to propose moving our Mailing List and long
> > form discussion to a new platform, Discourse
> > (http://www.discourse.org/). Most of this post will
> > probably sound like a Discourse ad (sorry), but I want
> > to make sure everyone understands why we should
> > switch.  
> 
> [removed remaining proposal]
> 
> Althou Discourse looks interesting, & thanks for sharing
> it, I do however a major nit to pick with it.
> 
> Via https://www.discourse.org/about:
> 
> % What was it built with?
> %
> % Discourse is a JavaScript application that runs in your
> web browser, % using the Ember.js framework.
> 
> Forcing users to enable Javascript or any client side
> code is a poor decision on behalf of users. I suspect
> there are number of OpenNIC members who are familiar with
> the surveillance concerns of enabling client side code on
> users systems. I do not think OpenNIC should be complicit
> in enabling broader attack surfaces on the community.
> 
> Is Discourse usable with Javascript disabled? A quick
> test on my end; https://try.discourse.org does not load
> on my test system as I have Javascript disabled.
> 
> Javascript, or any client side execution is a barrier to
> inclusiveness in the age of digital surveillance. I am
> not implying that the Discourse community has a malicious
> agenda, I am suggesting that the OpenNIC community should
> prioritise principles that allow users to maximise there
> freedom & liberty online, that is, a practice that is
> free from potential forms of surveillance, while also
> attempting to maintain an accessible user experience.
> Yes, some users can containerise their Javascript enabled
> software, however, that is not the argument.
> 
> To health & anarchy.