Discuss mailing list

[<vv AT cgs.pw>]

There is already another domain pointing to
this, but it is not written down anywhere
and I've forgotten. The admin seems to be
awol at the moment.

Also, we haven't found the person who can
edit the home page. There is long deprecated
info there about voting and we can't get
rid of it let alone add a forum link.

~ Ole


On Sun, 4 Dec 2016 21:44:34 +0000
dc0 <dc0 AT riseup.net> wrote:

> That's great but shouldn't it be advertised on the
> OpenNIC website so more people know about it? The forum
> should probably have another domain that is assessable to
> those that aren't using OpenNIC dns.
> 
> On 04/12/16 19:27, Theo Bleier wrote:
> > To add to the above:
> > 
> > We already have a forum setup at talk.geek, so we don't
> > need a new forum. The main problem right now is whether
> > people want to use it or not.
> > 
> > On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Jonah Aragon
> > <jonaharagon AT gmail.com <mailto:jonaharagon AT gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >     I sent him an email with unsubscribe instructions,
> > hopefully that works :)
> > 
> >     Not sure how you could possibly accidentally
> > subscribe to a mailing list...
> > 
> >     Jonah
> > 
> >     On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:00 PM dc0 <dc0 AT riseup.net
> >     <mailto:dc0 AT riseup.net>> wrote:
> > 
> >         Sorry, don't know who you are either. Perhaps
> > un-subscribing to the mailing list will resolve your
> > problem?
> > 
> >         On 04/12/16 18:54, joe williams wrote:  
> >         > PLEASE STOP MAILING ME
> >         >
> >         > I have asked many times.
> >         >
> >         > I don’t know who any of you are.
> >         >  
> >         >> On 4 Dec 2016, at 18:51, dc0
> >         >> <dc0 AT riseup.net  
> >         <mailto:dc0 AT riseup.net>> wrote:  
> >         >>
> >         >> If anything, a BB-like forum such as phpBB
> >         >> or SMF is probably  
> >         a more  
> >         >> organised solution than Discourse.
> >         >>
> >         >> On 04/12/16 18:15, Alex Nordlund wrote:  
> >         >>> Has anyone suggested discourse yet?
> >         >>>
> >         >>> On 4 Dec 2016 6:19 p.m., "Jonah Aragon"  
> >         <jonaharagon AT gmail.com
> > <mailto:jonaharagon AT gmail.com>  
> >         >>> <mailto:jonaharagon AT gmail.com  
> >         <mailto:jonaharagon AT gmail.com>>> wrote:  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    While it's certainly not ideal, the
> >         >>> mailing list's  
> >         archive page has  
> >         >>>    rudimentary functions for browsing
> >         >>>     
> >         (https://lists.opennicproject.org/sympa/arc/discuss/2016-12/
> >         <https://lists.opennicproject.org/sympa/arc/discuss/2016-12/>  
> >         >>>     
> >         <https://lists.opennicproject.org/sympa/arc/discuss/2016-12/
> >         <https://lists.opennicproject.org/sympa/arc/discuss/2016-12/>>)
> > and  
> >         >>>    replying to posts from the website. That
> >         >>> is, if you  
> >         really desire a  
> >         >>>    web interface for some reason.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    I don't think a forum is necessary and
> >         >>> it would encourage  
> >         apathy  
> >         >>>    towards the project for the reasons a
> >         >>> few people have already mentioned here and
> >         >>> on IRC, the nature of mailing lists is  
> >         a push  
> >         >>>    notification style of message, while
> >         >>> forum posts you have  
> >         to seek  
> >         >>>    out yourself. It would stop the frequent
> >         >>> reminders to  
> >         participate  
> >         >>>    that some people need. For example:
> >         >>> Yesterday. We had a  
> >         surge in  
> >         >>>    mailing list posts following the .o
> >         >>> approval and some  
> >         other various  
> >         >>>    discussions about infrastructure and the
> >         >>> future of .free,  
> >         and that's  
> >         >>>    only because every time someone
> >         >>> initiated a conversation  
> >         the mailing  
> >         >>>    list actively pulled new opinions in.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    The mailing list currently suits our
> >         >>> needs quite nicely  
> >         and I see no  
> >         >>>    reason to fix something that isn't
> >         >>> broken.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    Jonah
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 6:12 AM Aaron J.
> >         >>> Angel  
> >         <aaron.angel AT gmail.com
> > <mailto:aaron.angel AT gmail.com>  
> >         >>>    <mailto:aaron.angel AT gmail.com  
> >         <mailto:aaron.angel AT gmail.com>>> wrote:  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>        The obvious solution is to integrate
> >         >>> two. I imagine  
> >         could easily  
> >         >>>        add the ability to send/post to the
> >         >>> archive. I too  
> >         have no  
> >         >>>        interest in going to a web-based
> >         >>> forum to check and  
> >         read posts.  
> >         >>>        I'd probably drop out completely if
> >         >>> that were the case.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>        On Sun, Dec 4, 2016, 7:06 AM Philipp
> >         >>> Schafft <lion AT lion.leolix.org
> >         >>> <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org>  
> >         <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org
> > <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org>>> wrote:  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            Good morning,
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            by the way, I'm not a fan of the
> >         >>> taste of TOFU.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            On Sun, 2016-12-04 at 02:20
> >         >>> -0800, vv AT cgs.pw  
> >         <mailto:vv AT cgs.pw>  
> >         >>>            <mailto:vv AT cgs.pw
> >         >>> <mailto:vv AT cgs.pw>> wrote:  
> >         >>>> Well I don't think we'll lose anybody. :)
> >         >>>> Those of us who don't prefer mailing lists
> >         >>>> are currently using the mailing list with
> >         >>>> only a modicum of griping. :)  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> I doubt there
> >         >>>> is anybody here who will not use a forum on
> >         >>>> principle, or because of technical or
> >         >>>> accessibility issues.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            Considering myself, yes, we
> >         >>> would.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> That said, when it comes to talking about
> >         >>>> the number of people, I'd say that mailing
> >         >>>> lists don't really scale very well. It's
> >         >>>> fine with a few people and a few posts a
> >         >>>> day. But when it comes to larger numbers
> >         >>>> then a forum can handle any amount with
> >         >>>> ease. The ML had over 80 messages today, I
> >         >>>> think.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            Sure. Why don't you filter out
> >         >>> the mails you  
> >         don't like? My  
> >         >>>            MUA offers
> >         >>>            that I flag a thread and then I
> >         >>> can follow that  
> >         and ignore other  
> >         >>>            threads.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> Also, I would point out that forums do not
> >         >>>> need to have a huge amount of graphics and
> >         >>>> stuff that distracts. In fact they can be
> >         >>>> very business like. Here is one that I set
> >         >>>> up some years ago, but abandoned. One good
> >         >>>> feature is that it has sections that are
> >         >>>> not visible unless you are logged in. And
> >         >>>> there is also a section that only certain
> >         >>>> listed members can see, which can be of use
> >         >>>> for administrative use.
> >         >>>>   http://ykix.org
> >         >>>> I show that only as an example of
> >         >>>> readability and proof of concept that
> >         >>>> light grey text is not a given and there
> >         >>>> is actually no technical need to make us
> >         >>>> older folks feel unwelcome. The CSS on
> >         >>>> forums is easy to change to anything you
> >         >>>> want.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> Another thing about forums is the personal
> >         >>>> message function. You can do conversations
> >         >>>> in the background as PM without others
> >         >>>> reading them. This is not just a privacy
> >         >>>> thing, but helps keep the general
> >         >>>> communication clean when what you want to
> >         >>>> say is either off topic or personal
> >         >>>> comment.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            I perfectly can do that with the
> >         >>> same MUA as I do  
> >         for the  
> >         >>>            list. In fact
> >         >>>            I have two buttons, one to
> >         >>> answer to the list and  
> >         one for a  
> >         >>>            personal
> >         >>>            reply that is not going to the
> >         >>> list.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            And that perfectly works without
> >         >>> breaking  
> >         threading ;)  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> Note too, that on a forum, other people
> >         >>>> don't see your email address. This is
> >         >>>> particularly important in a public setting
> >         >>>> where people will be finding us through
> >         >>>> search engines. So even though the public
> >         >>>> can read the messages and learn from them,
> >         >>>> they cannot spam you. This makes a forum a
> >         >>>> little like the best of both IRC and ML.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> As it is now there is a curious aspect to
> >         >>>> the way we are communicating. We are
> >         >>>> hiding from the public. Yes, with some
> >         >>>> work, our conversations can be found, but
> >         >>>> they are not going to come up in
> >         >>>> Duckduckgo or Google when someone is
> >         >>>> searching for OpenNIC information. A forum
> >         >>>> becomes a public record and shows
> >         >>>> transparency.  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            Or a list archive.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            This is my most important point:
> >         >>>            Forums are always PULL based. So
> >         >>> you need to  
> >         invest time to  
> >         >>>            actually
> >         >>>            find out there is nothing new
> >         >>> that is relevant to  
> >         you.  
> >         >>>            MLs are PUSH. I'm informed when
> >         >>> there is a new  
> >         message.  
> >         >>>            (Please do not
> >         >>>            answer with 'but you can enable
> >         >>> e-mail  
> >         notifications!', yes.  
> >         >>>            I could do.
> >         >>>            r I could also just get the
> >         >>> message by email and  
> >         not being  
> >         >>>            spammed with
> >         >>>            mails that have no value on
> >         >>> their own.)
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            My experience is that those few
> >         >>> people who really  
> >         run the  
> >         >>>            infrastructure
> >         >>>            are short on time. Exactly
> >         >>> because they run it  
> >         all. And  
> >         >>>            often not for
> >         >>>            just one project. You may gain
> >         >>> Tom and Jack from  
> >         the street.  
> >         >>>            But you
> >         >>>            will likely loose those who
> >         >>> really run the  
> >         infrastructure.  
> >         >>>            The number of
> >         >>>            users increasing doesn't mean
> >         >>> the user actually  
> >         bringing a  
> >         >>>            project
> >         >>>            increase as well.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            That being my personal opinion
> >         >>> based on many  
> >         years of work  
> >         >>>            in similar
> >         >>>            projects. Also I'm not going to
> >         >>> push this too  
> >         much. OpenNIC  
> >         >>>            inner
> >         >>>            politics aren't my business. But
> >         >>> I think that  
> >         moving off the  
> >         >>>            operative
> >         >>>            aspects into a forum could harm
> >         >>> the peering as  
> >         information  
> >         >>>            would stop
> >         >>>            flowing.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            If you want a forum just for the
> >         >>> Tom and Jack, little chatting, doing
> >         >>>            some end user support or
> >         >>> whatever that is not  
> >         really about  
> >         >>>            operative
> >         >>>            aspects or voting I don't care
> >         >>> at all.
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            (my problem with voting is that
> >         >>> with a forum I  
> >         will no  
> >         >>>            longer have a
> >         >>>            copy of it. With ML you can
> >         >>> actually have a  
> >         significant,  
> >         >>>            digitally
> >         >>>            signed copy of the result. With
> >         >>> a forum you need  
> >         to trust  
> >         >>>            that the
> >         >>>            operator will keep the
> >         >>> information up and correct  
> >         for as  
> >         >>>            long as you may
> >         >>>            need it. Depending on stuff that
> >         >>> may for legal  
> >         reasons be  
> >         >>>            many years.)
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            Have a nice day,
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            with best regards,
> >         >>>
> >         >>>  
> >         >>>> Regards,
> >         >>>>        Ole Juul
> >         >>>>
> >         >>>>
> >         >>>> On Sun, 04 Dec 2016 09:11:03 +0000
> >         >>>> Philipp Schafft <lion AT lion.leolix.org  
> >         <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org>  
> >         >>>            <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org  
> >         <mailto:lion AT lion.leolix.org>>> wrote:  
> >         >>>>  
> >         >>>>> Good morning,
> >         >>>>>
> >         >>>>> On Sun, 2016-12-04 at 05:38 +0000, dc0
> >         >>>>> wrote:  
> >         >>>>>> This sounds like a great idea honestly
> >         >>>>>> and could make discussions related to
> >         >>>>>> OpenNIC more assessable to those who are
> >         >>>>>> allergic to mailing lists.  
> >         >>>>>
> >         >>>>> And loose all those allergic to forums ;)
> >         >>>>>
> >         >>>>> with best regards,  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            --
> >         >>>            Philipp.
> >         >>>             (Rah of PH2)
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>            --------
> >         >>>            You are a member of the OpenNIC
> >         >>> Discuss list. You may unsubscribe by
> >         >>> emailing
> >         >>> discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org  
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>  
> >         >>>             
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>>  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>        --------
> >         >>>        You are a member of the OpenNIC
> >         >>> Discuss list. You may unsubscribe by
> >         >>> emailing
> >         >>> discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org  
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>  
> >         >>>        <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org  
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>>  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>    --------
> >         >>>    You are a member of the OpenNIC Discuss
> >         >>> list. You may unsubscribe by emailing
> >         >>>    discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org  
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>  
> >         >>>    <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org  
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>>  
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>>
> >         >>> --------
> >         >>> You are a member of the OpenNIC Discuss
> >         >>> list. You may unsubscribe by emailing  
> >         discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>  
> >         >>>  
> >         >>
> >         >> --
> >         >> Jason
> >         >>  
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > --------
> >         > You are a member of the OpenNIC Discuss list.
> >         > You may unsubscribe by emailing  
> >         discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org
> >         <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>  
> >         >  
> > 
> >         --
> >         Jason
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >     --------
> >     You are a member of the OpenNIC Discuss list.
> >     You may unsubscribe by emailing
> >     discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org
> >     <mailto:discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --------
> > You are a member of the OpenNIC Discuss list. 
> > You may unsubscribe by emailing
> > discuss-unsubscribe AT lists.opennicproject.org 
>